Interview with Wayne Grudem

Wayne Grudem is research professor of theology and biblical studies at Phoenix Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. Aaron Cline Hanbury has taken the time to ask Grudem some questions about his book, Politics – According to the Bible (Zondervan, 2010).

What got you started on this project?

The theological reason is that I think God’s Word speaks to all of life; the implications of the Gospel have transforming power for all areas of life. And so I believe that as people come to trust in Christ as savior, that they begin to seek to be obedient to Him and that means that the Word of God should have transforming influence on marriages, on families, on education, on how we act in the business world and yes, certainly on how we act with respect to law and politics and government. And then a sort of personal note is that I have – for some reason or another – been interested in what happens in politics since elementary school, probably since I was 12 years old. And I suspect that’s an interest that God put in my heart, an interest that found culmination in the writing of this book, Politics according to the Bible.

How long did you work on this book?

I spoke at a conference for lawyers two summers ago, for Christian lawyers, actually meeting in Rome. I was speaking on the implications of the teaching of the Bible for law and government. And on the airplane on the way home from Rome, in the summer of 2008, I wrote the outline for this book. A lot of times that happens. That is, I’ll have something kind of simmering in the back of my mind for a number of years and then somehow, at a certain time, God brings it all together and the ideas just begin to flow, and I began to jot down topics and sort of tentative conclusions about what I thought the Bible’s teaching are on those topics. And this is the result.

Politics – According to the Bible aims at the pew, correct?

I’m aiming primarily at ordinary people, not pastors or theology professors — ordinary people who believe the Bible to be God’s word and to be true. But secondarily, I’m hoping that a clear explanation of the principles of the Bible will prove appealing and persuasive to people who might not take the Bible to be God’s word, but are willing to consider its teachings because they know it has been influential throughout history as a timeless book of wisdom. [I hope] they might consider its arguments and the evidence of common sense and the arguments of the book from the facts of the world and be persuaded as well.

How do you think your understanding of politics, the relationship of the Gospel to politics and that whole subject matter changed or developed for you?

I became much more firmly convinced that God’s purpose for his people is that Christians today should seek to influence government for good. I saw that in various places in Scripture, from Joseph having a high position of responsibility under Pharaoh in Egypt, to Daniel counseling King Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4, to John the Baptist rebuking Harod for all the evil things he has done, and to the apostle Paul standing before the Roman governor Felix dialoging with him about righteousness, self-control and the coming judgment. So I saw those narrative examples of God’s people influencing secular government. Oh and I should also mention, of course, Esther and Mordecai with regard to their very significant influence on King Ahasuerus in the Book of Esther. In addition to that, we have all the narrative examples of the good and evil kings and what they did in the Old Testament. Plus we have the teachings of Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 on God’s view of the nature and purpose of government. I think Genesis 9:5-6 also gives some foundational teaching in that regard. So there is quite a bit in the Bible that encourages people to influence government for good. And as I said, I became much more firmly convinced of that as I was writing.

In addition to that, I became aware of many more historical examples of Christians influencing government for good throughout the course of the history of the church. Something like two-thirds of the leaders in the abolitionist movement that eventually led to the abolition of slavery in the United States were Christian clergymen who preached from their pulpits that the laws about slavery should be changed and were morally wrong. They were preaching politics from the pulpit! And of course, Martin Luther King Jr. was a Baptist pastor who preached that racial discrimination and segregation are wrong. He was preaching politics from the Bible. In England, there was William Wilberforce who, as a Christian, labored 40 years to outlaw slavery in Britain and throughout the British Empire. So there are many instances throughout history.

I could add one other interesting example: Christian influence led to the outlawing of a practice in India where widows were burned alive with their dead husbands. It led to the outlawing of the binding women’s or small girls’ feet in China. Christian influence led to the outlawing of the gladiatorial contests in the ancient Roman Empire where contestants would die. It led to the end of abortion and infanticide in the Roman Empire. So there are many examples throughout history where Christians have had influence on government for good.

Getting into your book now, what is your book’s thesis?

Christians have a biblical responsibility to influence government for good.

Now in the book, you start off with several wrong views Christians might have about politics. What do you thing is most dangerous of those five wrong views?

Well, that’s hard to say, because different groups of people make different mistakes. The first mistake is that government should compel religion, and I think that’s wrong because genuine religious faith cannot be forced. It must be a free decision according to the invitations in Scripture. Christians don’t make that mistake today, but I think we have to emphasize it because we have to continually remember to promote freedom of religion.

Out of the five wrong views you list, which one is the most pressing today?

Well, there’re all important. But I think one argument in the book about a mistaken view is that Christians should do evangelism, not politics. That view is based on the assumption that no spiritual good comes from politics. And of course my answer to that is that there is spiritual good that comes from all obedience to God in everything He teaches in all of Scripture. And where he teaches about our responsibilities for government, I think we should seek to be faithful to that as well.

And also, I point out that God calls different Christians to emphasize different things in their lives. So I think God calls some Christians to work in the business world, others to work as missionaries or pastors in a local church; I think he calls others to be doctors or nurses, others to be teachers, and I think God calls others to work in politics and government, to be obedient to God and follow His principles from Scripture in that area of life.

As you get deeper into the book, you treat many specific political issues from abortion and taxes, to immigration and healthcare. Are there any issues you feel are more important than others?

I’m always going say there all important. I don’t want to pick out any verse of the Bible and say it’s the most important verse; the Bible speaks to all of life and is given to us in the infinite wisdom of God to speak to very specific issues of life. And I’m trying to bring the teachings of the Bible to bear on 50 or 60 political issues. So I can’t pick out one that’s more important. OK, but I do say in the book, in a chapter, that “this is the greatest problem facing the United States right now;” and that is chapter five on the courts, where I say that the accepted power of the Supreme Court, and then by implication lower courts, is the greatest problem facing the United States right now because the system of representative democracy that was given to us by the founding fathers was set up to function in such a way that judges do not create laws at all — they only evaluate the laws and evaluate people’s conformity to the laws, or lack of conformity. But now the most important issues facing the nation are decided not by democratic vote, not by elected representatives who are accountable to the people, but by unelected judges who serve for life and have essentially no accountability to the people. So that our system of government bequeathed to us by our founding fathers has been taken away from us by judges usurping power to which they do not constitutionally have a right and were not intended to have.

Different things become important at different points in a nation’s history. The system is broken; it’s not functioning as it was intended to function. And so the decision-making process of the nation as a whole has been taken away from the people and their elected representatives and usurped by unelected judges. And so I outline in the book that the only way I know how to correct that is to elect U.S. senators and presidents who believe that the constitution should be interpreted according to its original intent or its original public meaning at the time it was adopted.

Can you interact a bit with the idea – as promoted in Erwin Lutzer’s Is God on America’s Side? and elsewhere – that asking whether or not God is on America’s side is the wrong question? Should we instead ask whether America is on God’s side?

Yes. I appreciate Dr. Lutzer’s ideas in that book – which he actually gave to me personally. I count him a friend. I don’t think he would be uncomfortable with the materials in this book, although I haven’t talked to him specifically about it. It’s very helpful in a discussion if people understand what is meant by the terms used. And I mention in my book that America as a Christian nation might mean six or seven different things. And so, people can disagree with each other on the surface, but not have a fundamental disagreement. I think it’s very important to say at the outset that it’s not necessary in the United States to be Christian in order to be a citizen or to vote or to have full participation in the political process. I don’t think that Christians should only vote for Christian candidates. So there is certainly by constitutional requirement, which I agree with, no religious requirement that can be imposed on anyone running for political office. In those senses, we are not a Christian nation.

On the other hand, Christian principles were foundational in the thinking of the overwhelming majority of the founding fathers of the United States, if not all of them. Even Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, who were deists, still had a strong respect for the timeless wisdom contained in the Bible and in many ways sought to follow its principles. So, we have a strong Christian heritage in the history of the nation, and that has brought much good to the nation. And something I am seeking to recover in this book is the positive influence that the timeless wisdom of the Bible can bring to the needs of government and political issues today.

How would you respond to the claim that politics isn’t worth Christians’ time because a moral America doesn’t mean a born-again America?

Well, do we believe that the Bible is true when it says that the civil authority is for our good in Romans 13:4? If in fact God establishes civil government for our good, for our protection, to punish wrongdoing, to reward those who do good, to enforce justice and order, if that’s true, then who are we to say it’s of no spiritual good or of no value? I think we should be thankful for it and seek to improve it as we can. Now, do I think that having a good government is the only solution to the problems of a nation? No. That would be making what I call mistake number five in chapter one, that is that churches should do politics and not evangelism. If we only elect the right candidates, then all the problems of the nation will be solved. That’s certainly a wrong idea. There needs to be moral transformation that affects a nation that is not merely external, but comes about through a change in many people’s hearts through personal trust in Christ as savior. And so the church needs actively to do evangelism, but some are called to emphasize evangelism and some are called to emphasize political work, and both are means that God gives us to restrain evil and promote well being in society. So we should use both means.

How should we live our lives as Christians who believe the gospel in such a way that we influence people in all types of secular professions, including politics?

Well, Jesus says let your light so shine before others that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven. So the question is, “How does faithful work as an employee in a business advance the Gospel?” Well, it advances the Gospel through the testimony of our lives. How does living as a godly wife advance the Gospel? Well, Peter says in 1 Peter 3 that wives should be submissive to their husbands so that even if their husbands do not obey the Word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives. Our conduct is meant to be a means of testimony in itself every day. And so our conduct in marriage, our conduct in the business world, our conduct as neighbors, our conduct as educators or people in the medical profession, and certainly our conduct as people influencing people in government and politics should be done in such a way that it bears a positive witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What is your desired outcome for your book? How do you want a reader to flesh out what you’ve taught?

First, I want Christians to be convinced that they have a responsibility before God to seek to influence government for good in various ways, at least by voting but probably in other ways as well. Second, I hope that the book provides an abundant amount of information from Scripture and from the facts of the world today that will help people make intelligent decisions about political issues, about which side they should support in various issues that are debated today and that Christians can talk to each other about those things. Many times they might differ, but that conversation, if it’s done in a civil way, will be helpful and productive and I think we’ll learn from it.

There are specific major issues that face us as Christians today, in the United States and often in other countries. Issues of abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, national defense, questions of definition of marriage, questions of whether individuals should be the primary owners of property in a nation or government, be the primary owner of property, questions of level of taxation, level of control of life, questions of level of individual freedom and liberty. Should we use the resources of the earth God has given for our enjoyment? — Questions of relationships to other nations and questions of freedom of religion. I’m hoping to persuade Christians that there are reasonable answers to these that call on principles of Scripture and depend on principles of Scripture and that can be articulated effectively in the public square.

I’m hoping that God enables the book to be used to persuade Christians and others that there are very positive ways they can influence government for good and thereby society for good. And doing that is a way of fulfilling Jesus’ command that you should love your neighbor as yourself.

The above interview, conducted by managing editor Aaron Cline Hanbury, originally appeared in Southern Seminary’s “Towers” news magazine.

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